Offense and Old Comics
As far as webcomics go, I think lefthandedtoons tends to be pretty non-provocative. Maybe a dinosaur who gets your hopes up about the day of the week makes you feel disheartened when he’s wrong, but it’s not like we’re in the habit of trying to defend dickwolves. So yesterday I was surprised to find out one of my old comics was offending some people…
The comic is this one, where Mikva notices that the “bi” in “bisexual” meaning “two” has the implication that other numeric prefixes could be used, which to him (and me at the time) seemed absurd because there are obviously only 2 genders, right? As the first comment on the comic notes, the world is way more nuanced than that assumption:
Actually, there are numerous other genders that could be applied. So there are people that are pansexual. Meaning they could love anyone regardless of their sex or gender. This would include transgendered, transexual, genderqueer, and intersexed people. There could also be polysexuals who would love some, but not all. sexed and/or gendered people.
TLDR; there’s more than two sexes/genders.
Great point! I’d never heard of pansexuality back when I made that comic, but it appears the term was created in response to the same observation Mikva makes (and that most people don’t often think about): “bi” literally means just “two”. Mikva’s offering of the more limited “ambisexual” was based on my own ignorance of these other labels.
But the offense appears in the other comments. Dani said:
I find this extremely offensive as someone who is genderqueer. Bisexuals do not have to like cisgender males and females. They could like cismales and transwomen. Or ciswomen and genderqueers. The possibilities are numerous and it makes me feel like an outsider to say otherwise. It undermines me as a person completely.
You have to understand that my comic excluded you only because I’d never heard of cisgender or genderqueer back when I made it. I’d never heard of them before this comment, in fact. These terms were coined because they’re useful in a certain context of discussion, and it’s one of infinite contexts I’ve never actually been in. Obviously my research was lacking. My knowledge in this area comes just about completely from what I glean from Dan Savage.
Jocelyn said:
This is completely ridiculous. You need to get over yourself and your close-minded view of gender binary. This comic is wrong in every possible way, and the author is showing themself to be just as ignorant as the “stupid” character with the airline pilot uncle.
Please go out into the world and educate yourself. Learn that the world is a lot more complicated than you might be willing to believe and that comics such as this on the internet are not funny.
They are not “poking harmless fun”
This is directly attacking any number of people who identify as bisexual, pansexual, genderqueer, etc. It is hateful and hurtful, and it saddens me to see there are only 3 comments pointing that out to you.
I sympathize with the effort it takes to change widely held viewpoints, and you’re right that doing so begins with open-mindedness and education. But I’ve never said the phrase “poking harmless fun,” about this comic, so please don’t project a combative personality onto me before I’ve even responded! I can never control what’s perceived as “hurtful” by a reader, but “hateful” is attributing a mindset to me, and I promise you it’s not the case.
Negative comments are unavoidable when you make something, but I wanted to specifically address these because they make good points and come from a viewpoint I’d never considered. If you felt the same reaction as these commenters, I’d caution you to not also assume I’m not “willing to believe” that you have a good reason for being offended, as Jocelyn did. It may totally be that I’m down to learn!
(Also Jocelyn, you don’t have to use double-quotes when describing Raines as stupid. That guy really is kinda dumb.)
-Drew
Funny, that comic is one of my favorites. I had no idea people would take such offense. I’m even wearing my gay straight alliance t shirt atm!!
Thanks for pointing out that cis gay people can be just as binarist and transphobic and interphobic as cis straight people, it's a common misconception!
Super-classy, intelligent, and apologetic response for the win!
Hmm, as a pansexual person, I actually didn't find that comic hurtful, hateful, or combative at all. Not when I first read it, and not when I went back and reread it today.
Try being an intersex person or non-binary and read it again.
Anyone who takes offense to one of Drew's comics needs to chiil. I read alot of online comics, and his are among the most light-hearted, fun-loving out there. Even if you don't find one of his drawings funny, you have to admit – he does what he does to amuse people, not offend them. His goal is to entertain, not cause problems. Don't take it too seriously, and give the poor guy a break! Mikva and Raines have always been sorta "dumb". Thats part of the joke. Take it easy!
Of course, in a politically correct world as you and I apparently live in, there's a lot of truth in the comments you've received. Then, there's politeness and perspective. Your comic is not directed at holebis (I don't know if there's a non-European word to describe everyone that's not straight and happy to be in their own body), and it's a fucking webcomic.
Perhaps this is coming from a place where people are finally starting to realise that shouting out how different you are doesn't make you any more accepted (hello from The Netherlands, everybody) but I think this is a completely acceptable form of art, hardly shocking at all, and just poking fun at a language thingy that's kind of odd. If you think about it, but don't think about it too much.
Talking about language, of course you wouldn't know, with your simple-minded speech system, but there's three genders in most Roman languages. I particularly like Neuter, but don't really mind using male or female words. Am I now to be considered tri-lingo-sexual? Or am I just a little bit more open-minded than every English speaker?
To conclude, I agree with Danielle: your response is perfect. I really envy your way with words, and your ability to cope with people who just don't get it. I would have laughed it off, but you really do justice to your commenters, without apologizing for things you in all fairness just couldn't know.
At last! Sonemoe who understands! Thanks for posting!
As a bisexual man, I found that comic hilarious.
To me the comic is not about the sexuality but rather the word and the constructs of it. (as stated in the first panel of the comic)
Just between you and me, I think the comic was read into a little bit too much.
Well Jocelyn certainly overreacted. It's not that hard to believe that someone wouldn't be familiar with all these terms. I have a pansexual friend and I still don't get what it means. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm heterosexual so I am attracted to females, if I were homosexual I would be attracted to males, and if I were bisexual I would think I would be attracted to all.
I don't really see how there is more than two genders. I understand that gender has to do with more than simply what genitals one has. I believe one can feel they were born in the wrong body and can choose to identify as the opposite gender but even then they still are one of the two, just not the one their genitals indicates.
I'll admit I am ignorant to the topic and I'd like to hear and explanation that makes sense. Perhaps it comes from growing up in a small town where one can describe someone as "the black one" and everyone knows who is being refereed to.
Basically, there are people out there who do not believe that their sex (aka the physical characteristics of their bodies) and their genders (aka the psychological and social characteristics of their personalities and minds) do not match. Some of these people decide to transition fully, by taking hormones, having surgery, etc. Some choose to transition only through their dress and mannerisms, or only take hormones, or only have "top" surgery. These people might identify as transgendered or transsexual – or just as the gender they have transitioned into.
There are also people who do not identify as either male or female or who identify as both. Many of these people identify with the label "genderqueer."
Genderqueer, transgendered and transsexual people are sometimes collectively referred to as being trans* (with the asterisk acting as a wildcard).
This page might be helpful: http://www.glbtq.com/social-sciences/genderqueer….
(Disclaimer – I am cisgendered (aka not trans*) and therefore might have bollocksed some of this up!)
I am extremely offended… that Drew can draw so well with his left hand. I expect a written apology that personally addresses each individual that has been or ever will be envious of your skill. In addition to this, I also request that you keep doing what you're doing, and keep being awesome.
Last time I checked, we don't need all these prologues to the word "sexual" at all. You either are or are not- I don't really care what turns your libido crank, but it something does you have sexuality and if nothing does, then you don't. Drew- I love your comics and I've been a fan of them since Einstein and TPN. (And the penguin calls.) You shouldn't have to apologize for your sense of humor…though I admire your concern to be a big enough person to do so, and assuage the egos of people who sound more like they have issues with something called "self esteem" rather than "sexuality". Thank you for sharing your humor with us- you've saved my day more than once.
in the ideal fantasy world in my head, expressing an opinion should likewise signal your willingness to reconsider your stance, and engage in debate regarding the subject.
whatever harm an ignorant opinion might do can be easily and laudably corrected by following drewmo's excellent example – listen to your critics, educate yourself on their points, then follow up on your previous statement. that's the intelligent, considerate, responsible thing to do.
so congrats to drew for joining me as a happy resident of the ideal fantasy world inside my head, hopefully the rest of your will be joining us at some point in the future.
It makes me sad to think about what kind of environments people grow up in and deal with that lead them – through experience – to believe that every idle comment or joke relating to sexuality is a deliberate attack on their right to love and be loved.
(I don't mean that comment to be patronising, it genuinely upsets me)
Drew, I applaud you for your response. LHT was already one of my favorite webcomics, and it just shot up in the rankings.
If I had to label myself, I suppose I would call myself pansexual, but I try to just avoid labels altogether. Anyways, as someone who can be attracted to a person no matter what their gender, I didn't find the comic offensive or hateful at all. A little uninformed, perhaps, but not hateful. Nowhere did you say anything to the effect of "There are only two sexes, and anything in between is disgusting" or "There are only males and females, and people who are not completely female or completely male don't deserve to live" or something like that (Please note, I absolutely do NOT believe that).
At the most, your comic was uninformed. But your response here was perfect, showing that it is possible to take a simple mistake and learn something completely new from it, apologizing to those who might have been offended.
Well done, good sir.
All this time I thought that the ignorance of both characters (either the subtle ignorance of having to ask a question about what many people would consider an obscure topic that doesn't come up much or the more blatant ignorance that would somehow confuse "quadrisexual" with "airline pilot") was part of what made the joke work. I guess that makes me just as guilty of overanalyzing the comic as much as the people who took offense to it.
Regardless, taking the time to address these concerns in such a reasonable, dignified manner makes me respect you all the more.
I had the same thought!
I find the tendency of some on the net to automatically jump to "YOU HATE [GROUP X]" instead of saying "Wow, not cool" when they find something offensive. Not that I'm saying it's every trans* or queer or other minority person's job to explain why things are offensive, of course, but I do find that impulse rather counterproductive.
Thank you so much for your intelligent and well-reasoned response!
People take these words way too seriously, and it's ridiculous. They're umbrella terms. If a Canadian man likes asian women, we wouldn't call him 'canadiaheteroxenosexual'. You like people of the same sex, different sex, or you're open to both. If you fall into a smaller subset of that, fine…but those three include anyone you could be attracted to. That would be like me saying I'm from Michigan, but not from the United States.
Drew, you really don't have reason to worry here. You weren't trying to make fun of anyone, you were pointing out the inaccuracies of the word, and people in those comments did the same. They just did the same while calling you names.
Anyone who pays attention knows that you aren't the kind of guy who would mock someone for their gender or beliefs.
Drew, this response is what makes you such a classy guy, and one of the reasons I am such an unapologetic fan of your work. You have only multiplied my respect and admiration for you.
On the internet, it's really easy for people to respond to things they don't like, agree with, or understand by demonizing or dehumanizing the person responsible. It tends to go both ways, creating never-ending cycles of anger. (The Penny Arcade situation you linked to is a perfect example.) What matters isn't whether people "ought to" have been offended by the original comic; what matters is how you responded to learning of their feelings, and you responded absolutely perfectly, with humility and a willingness to learn, and educating your readers at the same time!
Seriously, this is now the #1 thing on my list of reasons why LHT is the Best Webcomic Ever.
(#2 is that you got Subway to tessellate their cheese. Is there anything you can't do?)
In my anecdotal experience, people who suffer from others not recognizing their gender identification are a LOT more sensitive about it than people who are merely aware of alternative interpretations of gender, and understandably so. In any case, welcome to the internet – where anything can offend anyone; you handled this in quite a classy manner.
not to throw a whole confusion into this – but there are in fact only 2 sexes.
many genders many sexualities, but 2 sexes. everyone was born from 2.
and before you say that there are people born with neither, then they are unsexed, which is not either one of the two sexes. no matter what you identify as or become, you were the product of 2.
Intersex people.
For serious.
When I first discovered my sexuality, I found that I was a PaperSexual, attracted primarily to images of people in magazines. Later, I shifted to a CRTSexual when I found that I was mostly attracted to people displayed on Cathode Ray Tubes. Then, predictably I suppose, I became an LCDSexual, skipping the PlasmaSexual phase completely. As I get older, however, I am increasingly bored by the whole thing.
I'm not quite sure how two horned creatures with a limited knowledge of sexual behaviour is at all offensive. People going into a conversation looking to bitch and not educate helps no one.
For goodness sake's! It's a LANGUAGE joke, not a sexuality joke. It's like people are TRYING to be offended these days.
they are, actually.. some people (aka TROLLERS) simply aggravate an issue so that they can boast their "transgender pride" etc on it. it's fun for them to "be offended" then blast at the "offender"
I gotta say.. the other people say what I would say, only better…
Some people are predisposed to be offended. I probably just offended them myself. You are doing a great job with your blob – keep making your manosinister art.
Okay, let me explain something. "This is directly attacking any number of people who identify as bisexual, pansexual, genderqueer, etc"
Jocelyin is right. Now, did you *intend* it to be a direct attack at anyone? No! Of course you didn't, you simply didn't know. However, your ignorance doesn't excuse that the comic invalidated and erased the very existence of intersex, non-binary, and quite a few other people.
In fact, Jocelyn's comment could be seen as a direct attack at intersex people, because they were far more the victims of this than non-binaries, yet she failed to mention them. She likely did out of ignorance, but this doesn't make up for the fact that she has added to the erasure of intersex people.
The comic is still up, and while this blog is here- and it's great that it is- how many people are going to read it vs the comic? You're still spreading ignorance and erasing the lives of a lot of people.
Jeez. She says "etc." Does Jocelyn have to state every single version of human sexuality specifically or it's offensive? Not mentioning someone does not erase their existence. Your existence is not so fragile and insubstantial that you need everyone to actively acknowledge it. You are here, you like whoever you like, and that's no one's business but your own (well, and your partner's). It's the ones who actively attack the non-heterosexual variations that deserve your attention and the full brunt of people's ire.
And this comic is not a direct attack – at no point did he disparage intersexed, non-binaries, etc. You might call it an indirect attack at most (and even that's a stretch.) He made a comment out of ignorance based on the common-placed idea that there are two sexes (male and female – the genetics part) and that people can like different ones or both. That people can associate with a gender that is not the one they were born with was not even relevant to the comic, and having to mention all of them would have made it far to long of a read even if he were aware of them.
But to the point: people have brought to his attention that it is offensive to some (some trans* intersex, etc. are, and some aren't) and he's already apologized and stated his case. I think now you're just flaming (as your name implies.)
Intersex people.
For serious.
Some people try very hard to be offended by things.
So, I'm seeing a lot of absolute failure to understand in the comments here, and some problematic elements in the comments to the previous post. As a result, I'd just like to make a few points.
1. Intent doesn't matter. When you do something harmful, 'not meaning to hurt anyone' doesn't make them less hurt. Please see http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/inten… for more details on this amazing phenomenon.
2. 'transgender' and 'transsexual' are not genders. They are integral parts of one's gender *identity*, certainly, but one can be transgender and also be a woman. They are orthogonal. transgender / transsexual are contrasted with cisgender / cissexual. Just a point from the comments in the original post that I wanted to clarify. The best working definition of 'transgender' I have is 'when a person's gender identity does not match the gender that was assigned to them at birth'. Cisgender, obviously, is the opposite – someone whose gender identity matches their birth-assigned gender identity is cisgender.
3. There most certainly are more than two genders. Linking to wikipedia doesn't make you magically correct, especially as Wikipedia has a strong history of cissexism in their policies; the articles on gender identity have been a source of dispute in the past, with cissexist voices winning out repeatedly. I would go so far as to argue that the scientifically accepted understanding of sex is flawed, and in fact others have argued the same thing: http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/male-… (yes, that's 2 links to Kinsey's blog, but what can I say? She has useful resources)
4. The core issue here is gender identity, not sexual orientation. So, to all cisgender GLB people commenting in this thread, please don't claim perspective you lack. It is appropriative to trans people and makes you look like an uninformed bigot.
5. Dan Savage has a long history of being very cissexist, especially against trans men.
I'm just going to respond to your first point, because regarding the other points, I don't have enough knowledge to make any sort of argument regarding them, and I don't want to get into a debate/discussion about something I can't make fully informed opinions about (yet – I am working on understanding more and more all the time, as much as I can). As you said, as a cisgendered female I will never be able to fully understand the point of view of any trans* person.
I have only a slight issue with your first point, because you are basically correct – just because someone doesn't *mean* to be offensive, doesn't mean that someone else can't be offended and hurt. However, i think in this case, you need to consider Drew's response. He didn't just simply say, "Hey, I didn't mean to offend anyone, jeez, calm down!" Rather, he took the time to do a little research, and understand why the mistake he made offended people. He went beyond, "Look, I'm sorry, i didn't mean to," to "Hey, I wanted to say I'm sorry, I didn't understand that what I said was offensive. I understand why that can be offensive now, and I will not make that mistake again. I know that I hurt people, but I hope you can understand that I didn't mean to." Yeah, he still says that he didn't mean to, but he is taking steps to not repeat it, rather than just brushing it off and saying that people overreacted to an "innocent joke".
I don't know, because I've never felt the oppression and discrimination that trans* people experience on a daily basis, but doesn't that count for something?
I hope I haven't offended anyone in this post. If I have, please let me know, so I can avoid doing so in the future.
i never thought the comment to be offensive in any way at all because to my recalection there were only 2 sexes biologicaly speaking and although there are many MANY sexual preferences he wasnt saying at any point there werent.
we are all male or female Y or X boy or girl